giving a reference for a bad employee

Here is an anecdote you may find illustrative of the problem. Does he have potential to do y? Poor Grima. Paige Turner* June 19, 2015 at 1:13 pm. And someone who was dishonest, sexist, lazy and/or incompetent is entitled to have everyone else in their life cover that up? Short assessment tasks. Exactlyme telling the truth when being asked a direct question isnt punishment, its cause and effect. Its not the responsibility of a company to provide financial support for everyone. I could only sing their praises, which were really few and far between. Its not a punishment to be honest in a reference. 1. You deserve an employer who treats you with respect, pays a decent rate, and allows you to have a life also. Unless theyre collected by someone else before OP sees them? To make matters worse, the CFO was also best friends with the CEO. But it wouldnt be unusual for several months or even a year to pass before I found it convenient to use them the way I like to use them. [2] What did you do at your last job? I raised no money, ruined relationships with the workplaces partners, led to a hostile work environment investigation, and most of the staff quit.. Is this person ineligible for rehire they harassed people, did illegal things, etc. Its not vindictive to say this guy came in and trashed the place. Id say that in a reference about a general contractor. Because if I dont know WHY this person is not eligible for rehire, then I may have to draw the worst conclusions. Ive experienced this too just recently, in fact; the place I was contracting was going to hire me on, and a prior employer tried to torpedo my background check by claiming Id never worked there. Is your stance that references shouldnt be a thing, then? You cant complain about bad, vindictive bosses and then complain when a company takes steps to avoid hiring people like that. OP1, be very careful about libel/slander laws where you are. Yet four months later he had a same-level job at a similar non-profit across the country, which he probably got because theyd agreed not to badmouth him, because if they admitted what they let him get away with theyd all look like assholes. If they didnt spend the card after 9 months, they probably have forgotten about them by now. The person on the receiving end of the references would need to weigh the credibility of all the references they received. They asked us to choose from a small list of places, and I chose the burger place since I wanted something practical. The thing is, the candidate selects their references. My dad felt like the young man had taken everything to heart and was pleased about that at least. e) the candidate had needed to make a (valid) complaint about bullying, underpayment or so on, against someone the reference was friends with or otherwise loyal to; Or are they ineligible for rehire because they were fired for incompetence, but you are hiring for a different skill set? update: I resent my employee for being richer and more qualified than me, can I say I cant come to the office because of my dog, our unlimited vacation is really just three weeks, and more. I dont see that its up to me or a manager to inquire what kind of bullying or issues this person had. It was a half-truthI was still processing data for her, but she stopped delegating programming changes to me after a month because I wasnt getting up to speed fast enough to please her. Also, from his experience getting hired at the organization for which OP was a board, he also has excellent references he can fall back on. All of this is almost certainly true. This makes little sense even on its face. And people will get work, it will just be difficult and take longer, which I think makes sense when people were bad at their jobs. But other than that, why not enjoy not feeling the need for the job search with all of the attendant stress? Or a lot of things. And thats it. I log gift cards in my budget software, with the card number, expiry date and balance. He is now applying for Chief Executive jobs. There are many reasons why an employer may provide an untrue reference. But I would certainly give an honest reference, but keep it objective and based on truth, rather than on any understandable emotions youre feeling. Even outside of a pandemic, people forget small-amount gift cards all the time. my coworker answers questions directed to me, social media post trashing a colleague, and more, updates: I secretly moved peoples desks two inches, coworker keeps stealing our snacks, and more, My manager wants me do more talking to people in-person rather than sending emails, My team isnt using the gift cards I gave them. If your organization allows broader discussion from you, be honest but strategically discreet (revenue declined and turnover increased). Also, toss resumes with work histories that are wildly different or only very tangentially related to the job you are hiring for unless the applicant explains why they are seeking to make this career change. It is, however, quite typical of many of the boards Ive dealt with in both non-profits and the private sector. I could be wrong, but I think checking your balance is different than what the purchaser can see. Or less. If they truly had a friendly relationship, he might be relying on that goodwill at this point. I tend to have a bad case of if its not in front of me, it doesnt exist, and if a friend gently poked me and asked if I still wanted to use that gift card or they should get me something else next time or what, I would totally appreciate it. Remember, there is no accountability for a dishonest reference. By then other parts of his life had also fallen apart, and he was not able to return to work again. I worked at what used to be a large retail chain where the common practice in my sales region was to schedule people who quit and worked out their notice for one last shift after the end of their notice period. I walked into one job on my first day and the three people there flat out refused to train me. Plus, like you said, how are hiring managers supposed to fill in any blanks when not much information is provided in the first place? Will NEVER use them again even if this is rural area with limited options. This! I keep a stash of the customer restroom cards in my wallet and glove box and use them on road trips and other times that I need to buy a coffee to justify using a restroom while away from home. Likewise if the posting is on a board or site with a Click here to apply mechanism that doesnt include a cover letter option, then people arent able to include it. (Who wants to drive 45 minutes to spend a $25 gift card?!). I did manage to get part time elsewhere so they no longer have my taken for granted technical skills for free either. There is not currently a surplus of people out of work because they are facing the consequences of their own actions. But I appreciate that Im probably weird. Even if your comments are valid and you might even win in a lawsuit, it isn't usually worth your time or emotional investment. Its always going to be a matter of subjective opinion on all sides, but getting multiple viewpoints on a candidates performance can help figure out if this is a case of someone whos terrible to work with, a vindictive boss, or just a terrible previous job fit and the candidate is looking forward to the position Im hiring for, where they will never have to do X job task again. Just let it go. Its weird. At one of my retail jobs we once got a phone call from someone who was very upset that she had given a gift to someone who hadnt yet redeemed it, and she offered that she had written the gift card number down and was checking the balance DAILY. The idea is that the experience of a subordinate is key to assess a managers ability. But that schoollike my schoolhad reached an agreement to not tell anyone about it. (And none of them have, which stresses me out and makes me wonder if I should remind the recipients they exist?! I still had copies of my signed hiring agreement, plus pay stubs and glowing reviews. Its apples and oranges due to the consequences. It gives me a break from the work Im doing. If its an Amazon card, I can scan it into my phone and it will get spent eventually. OP1, Im very sorry you went through this! DON'T have an "ask, but don't give" reference policy. The son-in-law didnt need dropcloths. But, thats where headphones come in to hopefully signal I dont want to be interrupted (of course, that depends on your office and its culture), and I know that staying at my desk opens me up to interruptions. For all you know these people use them on vacation or to do Christmas shopping and that time of year has not been around yet. But ultimately the answer is that what youre suggesting is more work for the employer. This isnt the end of the road for them, its the end of one particular branch that they really shouldnt be in. Again, this is an ED level position. But the ones that are extreme do deserve bad references. Most situations will be a lot less extreme than that or than OPs description. The bad candidate shouldnt need to scrape by on public assistance, but they should probably look for a different line of work in which they wouldnt be responsible for managing employees or raising money. Therefore if an employee has underperformed at work or acted unfavourably, it is not illegal for an employer to state this in a reference as long as it's wholly accurate. Its totally different when it involves kids, too. Plus, the people asking me for favors are people I often need favors or assistance from. There are two managers in my department who are similar to this. Unless this is an employment verification check (Grima Wormtongue was employed starting ____ as kings advisor, and resigned on ____, and is NOT eligible for rehire) and not an actual reference check. This is especially important for higher-level positions. (This was all before the pandemic, as I am currently sticking close enough to home to not need an elaborate restroom justification strategy.). I do think that regularly reading AAM will help you to do a reset and help in many other ways also. You know, there is no law that says you need to change jobs every x number of years. The ordeal did serve me well in one regard; I have no faith at all in assertions or trust in authority left. Many dodgy people who abuse the reference checking process and give a dishonest bad reference usually tend to be cunning enough to present themselves as credible to a recruiter. I love this phrasing. We worked on the same team for years, she hit her major targets, we were friendly enough and from the outside world, it would be reasonably assumed we knew each others work well. We do need references baked into the labor market because people arent really inclined to be honest about their shortcomings! In those cases I try to stick to what they did (Completed assigned tasks, asked questions when needed) without praising them either and let people draw their own conclusions. But why lie in the first place? If it does not, support the wronged employee in pursuing civil recourse (e.g. Better on public assistance than running another org into the ground, hurting its programs and employees. a) they didnt want the candidate to leave their current role; And that he was the cause of your business nearly going under? In those 14 months, I did rewrite the automation system, eliminate 2 FTEs, filled in for 8 of the 12 employees onsite during PTO, and a host of other tasks from other stakeholders, but she was offsite and wasnt in a position to witness any of the work. I gave 4 weeks notice and worked my butt off to tie up loose ends and leave multi-million dollar cases in good condition, and my boss was so mad at me for leaving that she gave me a bad reference every time a prospective employer called to verify employmentand would then email me and ask me to come back to work for her. People give great references to people who they like all the time, no matter how middling or incompetent their friend actually is in the workplace. For example, they were disorganised. And it turned out that two people from my job had given her positive references because Shes a single mom and her daughter doesnt deserve to starve. Well, the people she attacked didnt deserve to be attacked, either. I think for a lot of people building collegial relationships that are probably more friendships than true working relationships is a very easy way to have a long list of reference options. There are other people who also need jobs who have not caused this kind of destruction. Amazon e gift cards to my knowledge let you know. Sola I totally agree that ones ability to house/feed/support oneself for the rest of ones life should not be left in the hands of your hopefully-not-totally-vindictive former manager (who, by conventional job search wisdom, is the reason you left your former position in the first place). As someone who really is only holding off on getting a cert because of test anxiety, a skills test before even getting an interview would definitely make me not want to apply. I said yes, but that I could only speak to his performance with respect to the board, which he accepted. If youre struggling to find work because youve been unable to provide satisfactory references, you really should take a step back to reflect on what you should be doing differently. Employment References - How to Avoid Getting Sued - FindLaw TootsNYC, I would totally go back to my boss and say just as a FYI, I tried to use the gift card you gave me, and it didnt have a balance on it. Not to be a jerk, but so she would be aware that sometimes people wait awhile to use them. Also, I thought the LW said that this bad employee asked her for a reference. Im a little ashamed to admit to thinking the same thing. The idea is that the company can make sure the license is still active and in good standing, but in this case, it will stop people who arent reading the job description form continuing. Some intense googling revealed this was at least the third time this happened with him, and my understanding is its happened at least twice more. The worst part was that, as soon as we hired him, people came out of the woodwork to tell us what a nightmare he was. An employment agreement does not give you the right to dictate the rest of that persons life. But to be honest, I think that this is bad advice, if you are not going to be harmed by giving an HONEST negative referral. This was especially true with roles wherein previous work samples and short assessment tasks could be utilised to measure skills and competencies. The jerky-turkey has control over that, though. Extra cash or extra time off. It gets declined and is empty. But a lot of the other managers never could grasp the basic concept of references lie about candidates, and not always to make the candidate look good. If I got a flat, factual response like that from someone I would absolutely take it as a negative (or just very average, not great) reference and not go forward with that person if I had other options. Why is an abusers right to a job higher than the literal safety of the other people who work at the job? Yup. In my experience, reference checks are useless at best, and actively harmful at worst. He was saying I quit at the first challenge that came down the pike, and implying I wasnt mentally tough. Got it all over the baseboards and ceiling. This definitely feels like trolling. These arent people that Ive listed and want to associate with my career, but they do end up in the mix from time to time. A lot of e-card services do this if you order in bulk for a company. Yes, Ive seen references used in mala fide enough times that Ive lost faith in the process. If a fallible manager is qualified to write letters supporting a similar or better role elsewhere based on the applicants history, shes also qualified to write letters discouraging such a role. I had a document for my cover letter and one for my resume all ready for upload. My apologies to the OP, but this is truly not normal behavior, at least in my opinion. That is not their only choice in life, there are many other career paths they could be suitable for. Just because you have had a couple of bad experiences, doesnt mean that 99% of references are lies. I can accuse you of bigotry right now. b) it is illegal to provide a bad reference. Its a consequence of poor behavior or job performance. Personally, I believe everyone deserves to survive no matter what and that we should be using UBI to accomplish that. Are they even adequately able to judge the performance of someone who they manage but whose job they dont actually understand? They have to go through their PIP process, and then go back through the hiring process again. My husbands school ended up with a whizzer of a principal (who ended up resigning abruptly over a problem with a female employee off hours, but he was special in other ways, too). Thats what I do whenever someone gives me a gift card. You can read it here. I completely and totally agree, Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est. A former colleague excelled at this she was given the option of resigning, rather than being fired, after making life awful for the rest of the office for 9 months and yet got a string of very good jobs after in a a small, insular field known for having a surplus of very qualified applicants. Can Employers Give a Bad Reference for a Former Employee? Yes, give a bad reference. CEO freaked out when a new hire quit, brilliant employee is horribly inappropriate, and more, updates: stopping a nickname, taking over a deceased coworkers office, and more, update: our new admin crashed the company car and lied about it, my coworker keeps asking me for personal favors. I still remember my father hiring and later firing an employee for some particular reasons. If its helpful, what I started doing: 1) Upload my resume. Then laugh evilly once I got off the phone. And at one of the later jobs, she had similar issues and also resigned. Ive not come across her name in many years, but Im afraid to google her for fear that shes probably director of something by now. Yes- my sister would do a similar thing-save them up for a big item. Ive always viewed a cover letter as a way to connect the dots between the job description and what they should look for in your resume that actually fulfills those requirements. We wondered how he manages to get the job he was so bad. Not everyone is cut out for continuous advancement. Tucker has a BA and holds Ohio teaching credentials. My dad had a horrible employee who used him as a reference for years I assume because my dad was a nice guy. But thats a lot less likely because the manager wont lose anything if the already ex-employee gets a new job. Sure there are some terrible bosses who lie about former employees. There is far too much spam for me to go leaping to the phone every time it rings. But left unchecked anger can become our biggest drawback. Youre creating imaginary stakes around this. At least when my former workplace gave out gift cards (usually a small bonus in thanks for work on some project) theyd give you a list of choices to pick from. Is It Illegal To Give A Bad Reference? - Gattuso & Ciotoli I wonder how official that agreement is. An employer can (almost) always fire someone for stealing from other staff! 1. I am sorry you got screwed over. That said, it seems to me that more organizations should ask for references from former reports and not just managers, when theyre hiring managers. They lie for all sorts of reasons, including out of pure spite. Its a restaurant card, and a pain to use for anything other than in-person dining. You never want your boss to have the slightest inclination that you're. In my field, it is very common to get $5-$10 gift cards as thank yous, and they are never for places I go regularly (I mostly frequent local places within walking distance of my house for coffee/pastries/other treats). I saw something very similar with a bad CEO at a non-profit, and he almost sank us for similar reasons. Its a terrible idea to spend the gift card on themselves. I know darned well some of that balance was still left after two job changes and a move back to Ohio because she was doling it out a little at a time for treats. I also have this thing where I prefer to spend gift cards on something fun or something I wouldnt normally buy for myself, vs. groceries, gas, etc. I wish someone had given an honest reference for someone I hired recently. Potential future employers deserve to know that. #2: It sounds like you were actively told during your employment that you werent meeting goals and objectives. My letter and the reference check phone call essentially boiled down to, Hortense was a teaching intern in this class. The situation OP1 describes may be one of those rare, 1% of circumstances when the reference check may come in useful to the recruitment processbut it also depends on the job this ex-ED is now interviewing for.
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